AN EVENING OF ESCHATOLOGY

On September 27, 2009, Desiring God and Bethlehem College and Seminary hosted “An Evening on Eschatology” at the Downtown Campus of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis. It was a discussion/debate moderated by John Piper (pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church and founder of Desiring God Ministries) about the return of Jesus with Jim Hamilton (professor of New Testament at Southern Seminary in Louisville), Sam Storms (pastor of Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City), and Doug Wilson (pastor of Christ Church, Moscow, Idaho).  I showed two clips from this during my sermon.  Click the image below for the video in its entirety:

MAIN BELIEFS ABOUT “END TIMES” PROPHECY

Historical Premillennialism
This belief was held by a large percentage of Christians during the first three centuries of the Christian era.  The Antichrist first appears on earth and the seven year Tribulation begins. Next comes the Rapture. Christ and his Church return to earth to rule for a Millennium. The faithful will spend eternity in the New Jerusalem which is a gigantic cubical structure, some 1,380 miles height, width and depth, which will have descended to Earth.

Dispensational Premillennialism
Declared a heresy in ancient times, was reintroduced circa 1830. Premillenialism received general acceptance by most Fundamentalists and other Evangelical Christians after the publishing of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. As in Historic Premillennialism, the Tribulation is believed to precede the second coming of Christ, and the subsequent establishment of the millennial kingdom — a thousand-year golden age on Earth. The Final Judgment follows the millennium. But, theologians are divided over the timing of the Rapture. Many Premillennialists search world events and signs in the heavens for some indication of the Tribulation, which they anticipate will arrive at any time.

Amillennialism
Amillennialists believe that the millennium is not an actual physical realm on Earth. They do not believe that it will last 1,000 years. Rather it began at the time of Pentecost and is currently active in the world today through the presence of the heavenly reign of Christ, the Bible, the Holy Spirit and the activities of Christian faith groups. Both good and evil will continue in the world during this time. Lawlessness, a falling away from the Church, and persecution of Christians will increase in magnitude. Finally, the current Church Age will end suddenly at Christ’s second coming. A type of rapture will happen when Christ returns: believers will rise to meet Jesus in the sky. All will then shortly return to Earth. The Day of Judgment will then occur. Events described in The Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) and in most of the book of Revelation are seen as occurrences which have already happened, or which are symbolic in nature and not to be taken literally. The Antichrist is looked upon figuratively and not as a real person.

This belief was held by many leaders of the early Christian church during the first and second centuries. Simultaneously, other leaders — perhaps the majority — taught a version of premillennialism that is very different from today’s dispensational premillennialism. St. Augustine (354 – 430 AD), often called the “Father of Amillennialism” was largely responsible for the establishment of amillennialism as the formal church belief. It remained the generally accepted system throughout Christianity until after the Reformation in the 16th century. Many Christian denominations — including the Anglican Communion, Disciples of Christ, Lutheran, Orthodox, Reformed, Roman Catholic, and some Baptists continue to teach Amillennialism.

Postmillennialism
This belief arose during the early 19th century. Postmillennialism involves the view of last things which holds that the kingdom of God is now being extended in the world through the preaching of the gospel and the saving work of the Holy Spirit, that the world eventually is to be Christianized, and that the return of Christ will occur at the close of a long period of righteousness and peace, commonly called the millennium.  The theory is based on the perception of a gradual movement towards social perfection. The entire human race is converted to Christianity, including the Jews. A millennium of peace and righteousness follows. After the millennium, Jesus returns to earth, resurrects the dead believers, and conducts the last judgment. The Rapture and Tribulation are largely ignored.

Preterism
This is a belief that the events prophesied in the New Testament have already happened. The great war of Armageddon in the book of Revelation occurred in the late 60′s and early 70′s AD when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, many Jews were killed and the rest were driven from Palestine. When Jesus talked about the end of the world, he did not mean that the physical world would be no more. He taught that the old worldview held by various contemporary Jewish groups was coming to an end, to be replaced by a new concept, the Kingdom of God. Thus, all of the major elements in the book of Revelation (Tribulation, Armageddon, Rapture, etc.) actually took place in the first century.

No Millennialism
Most skeptics and liberal Christian theologians largely interpret the contents of the books of Daniel and Revelation as having no prophetic information for our future. Many regard Revelation as being composed of visions, hallucinations or nightmares of the author, of little meaning for Christians today. Some believe that the purpose of the book of Revelation was to stiffen resolve in the early Christian movement to withstand persecution by the Roman Empire. Thus, its purpose was to predict persecutions and other events that were to happen to the early Christian church. They also reject the apparent prophecies in the Book of Daniel. They believe that Daniel was written early in the 2nd century BC, long after most of the events had actually happened. It was history recorded, not their future prophesied.

THE RAPTURE

Some of the above positions contain the belief  that the church will be “raptured” or “be caught up” in the air to meet Jesus – but there are different beliefs about when the rapture will take place.  Here’s a look at the main beliefs about the Rapture:

Pre-Tribulation Rapture
The Rapture happens just before the Tribulation, so that believers will not have to experience any of its disruption and pain. The main difficulties with pre-trib are contained in the Olivet Prophecy of Jesus. In Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus describes the terrible destruction and loss of life of the tribulation period. The disaster is believed to be so intense that no human (Christian or non-Christian alike) would remain alive, except that God shortens the duration of the disaster for the sake of the believers. Jesus then continues by describing his return towards earth immediately after the terrible devastation. From this passage, it is obvious that the rapture will follow the Tribulation. The supporters of the “pre-trib” position suggest that Jesus will have a total of three comings: the first during the first century; the second at the start of the tribulation, and a third at the end of the tribulation.

Post-tribulation Rapture
The faithful experience the full horrors of the entire Tribulation and are raptured only at the end of the 7 years. The main problem with this theory is that there are many Bible passages which state that Christ’s return will be at a time that cannot be predicted. But the Tribulation period starts with the arrival of the Antichrist and an interval of peace. Precisely 42 months later, a sudden shift occurs, a peace treaty is broken, and devastation begins. These would be well defined dates that would allow an accurate prediction of the end of the Tribulation. There are other weaknesses to this theory.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture
The Rapture happens 42 months into the Tribulation. Up to that time, the Antichrist brings peace to the world. After 42 months, events take a sudden turn for the worse. Some supporters of the “mid-trib” position suggest that there will be many mini-raptures.

Pre-wrath Rapture
This is a new theory, promoted by Marvin Rosenthal, former director of Friends of Israel, and others. Their view teaches that the church must experience most of the Tribulation, and then be raptured towards the end of the Tribulation period.

Partial Rapture
This theory teaches that the faithful born-again believers are raptured just before the Tribulation. Newly born again believers are are raptured during or at the end of the Tribulation.

But I don’t hoard like that.  I’m not like them.  I throw things away, and I even give things away to those in need – sometimes.  Plus, I’m married to a woman with the gift of hospitality, which is accompanied by the gift of housecleaning. She has taught me well!  Hoarders have a problem.  I don’t.

Or do I?  Obviously the kind of hoarding featured on the show is the extreme, but after reading this quote by one of my Christian heroes, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, I’m not so sure I don’t have a problem myself.  He wrote these words in his benchmark book, The Cost of Discipleship:

“Earthly goods are given to be used, not to be collected. In the wilderness God gave Israel the manna every day, and they had no need to worry about food and drink. Indeed, if they kept any of the manna over until the next day, it went bad. In the same way, the disciple must receive his portion from God every day. If he stores it up as a permanent possession, he spoils not only the gift, but himself as well, for he sets his heart on accumulated wealth, and makes it a barrier between himself and God. Where our treasure is, there is our trust, our security, our consolation and our God. Hoarding is idolatry.”

I’m not convinced that having a savings is sin, nor am I convinced that I should give everything I own away and expect God to replenish me anew every morning with the things I gave away the day before.  Many of the things I have are things God has given me that I need for the sustenance of me and my family.  However, I have many things I don’t need.

I’ve moved my family 11 times in the 18 years I’ve been married.  I’ve hauled a lot of things from place to place to place.  I’m also well aware that there are many in my scope of influence who do not have what they need.  I have dabbled in hoarding, and I don’t think I feel very good about it after all.  May the Lord continue to press on us the truth that He has blessed us in order to be a blessing to others, and may He remind us often of these words penned by the Apostle Paul.

I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness.  As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.” (2 Corinthians 8:13-15)

Click here to view the video on YouTube.

Click here to view the video on YouTube.

Click here to view the video on YouTube.

CHALLENGE:
In response to this Sunday’s sermon on generosity, the elders have issued a churchwide sacrificial giving challenge. Next Sunday (October 3), a special offering (in addition to the regular offering) will be collected for the ministry of the Hills in Japan. Because the dollar-to-yen exchange rate is so low right now, they are experiencing a serious financial deficit. Their ministry in Japan is so vital to the expansion of the kingdom that the elders have set the goal of collecting $10,000 from this second offering to send to them. Pray about how you can store up treasures in heaven by generously giving to the ministry of the Hills. If you will not be in attendance on Sunday, please send your financial gift to the church or drop it by the office this week.

MAIN POINT:
Kingdom citizens are people who decide how much is enough to live on and generously give away the rest.

TEXT:
Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.  “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!  No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. (Matthew 6:19-24)

QUOTE:
Glen Stassen, professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, and author of Living the Sermon on the Mount says:

We know the reality: if we invest all our money in an expensive, luxurious car, then a significant amount of our caring and attention will go into how the car is doing.  This is what is meant by our heart following our possessions.  If on the other hand we invest our money in education and evangelism; prevention of HIV/AIDS, hunger, and poverty; in orphanages, in poor countries, and agricultural development and teaching the gospel there, then we will pay more attention to how people we have given to are doing.

God wants our heart not only our money, but Jesus is a realist.  He knows that our heart tends to follow our money.

APPLICATION:
How to live like generous kingdom citizens in today’s world…

1. Decide how much is enough and stick to it.

Pray about this and realize that enough is much less than what you think it is.

2. Know where your money is going.

Track your spending so that you can determine how much is enough and areas of excess.

3. Get out of debt and stay out!

Ask the Lord to make a way for you to get out of debt and be willing to trim and cut in order to do so.  Also, do not stop being generous while you are working your way out of debt.

4. Get to know people in need.

Francis Chan, pastor and author of Crazy Love wrote this:

Awhile back I had a free evening, so I decided to go to the store and buy some items to give away to those who needed them more than I do.  It was a good idea, something I want my life to be characterized by more and more.  But it was embarrassing.  I realized that everyone I knew had enough, that I didn’t know many people who were truly in need, and that I needed to change that.  I needed to go and intentionally meet people who don’t live like I do or think like I do, people who could never repay me.  For their sake, but for my own as well.

5. Don’t be afraid to do what it takes to be generous.

Francis Chan again:

Sometimes I feel like when I make decisions that are remotely biblical, people who call themselves Christians are the first to criticize and say I’m crazy, that I’m taking the Bible too literally, or that I’m not thinking about my family’s well-being.  For example, when I returned from my first trip to Africa, I felt very strongly that we were to sell our house and move into something smaller, in order to give more away.  The feedback I got was along the lines of “It’s not fair to your kids,”  “It’s not a prudent financial choice,” and “You are doing it just for show.”  I do not remember a single person who encouraged me to explore it or supported the decision at the time.

We ended up moving into a house half the size of our previous home, and we haven’t regretted it.  My response to the cynics, in the context of eternity, was, “Am I the crazy one for selling my house?  Or are you for not giving more, serving more, being with your Creator more?”

LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE SERMON.

Last Thursday and Friday, I took Jesse and Peter (the guys on staff at my church) and attended the Summit at the Albuquerque satellite location.  We were inspired, challenged, and encouraged in our leadership by leaders like Bill Hybels (founder and pastor of Willow Creek), David Gergen (CNN’s senior political analyst), Bono (lead singer of U2 and humanitarian), Tony Blair (former Prime Minister of England), Wess Stafford (President and CEO of Compassion International) and others.

One of the sessions was lead by Tim Keller, the Founder and Senior Pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Manhattan, NY, which has been named one of the Top 25 Most Influential Churches in America as it not only ministers to 6,000 New Yorkers every week but also has planted more than 100 churches as well.  Tim is in his 60′s but his congregation is made up mostly of 25-40 year olds, many of whom were once very skeptical of the Christian faith.

In his session, he addressed the epidemic of spiritual deadness in American churches, gave the symptoms of it, and offered a couple of prescriptions for it.  This was all based on his study and preaching on the parable of the prodigal son found in the Gospels and spelled out in his book, The Prodigal God.  Since this epidemic exists in so many churches, I thought I would share some of his insights with you.

How to tell if you’ve fallen prey to spiritual deadness:

1. You express strong and lasting anger when things go wrong. Anger is a natural response to pain and injustice, but if you stay angry and refuse to let things go, you’re well on your way to spiritual deadness.

2. You viciously counter-attack others or you experience devastation when you’re criticized. This shows that you’re not trusting the Lord to sort things out and deal with the one who has offended you.

3. Your prayers are petitionary only. There’s no intimacy and enjoyment of God. A person who is spiritually dead – if he does pray – only asks things of God and doesn’t worship and enjoy Him.

4. You’re constantly loathing people. Because you’re not content in the Lord and enjoying His provisions for you, you are constantly looking at others with envy, coveteousness, and loathing.

5. You can’t forgive others. A spiritually dead person is completely out of touch with how much he’s been forgiven by the Lord, and so he feels superior to others and is unable to forgive others.

If you recognize that you may be spirutally dead, here are some things you must do:

1. You must experience a new level of repentance. This is not just an acknowledgment of your wrong-doing, but it’s engaging in the act of making an all-out effort to turn from the wrong-doing.  It involves doing whatever it takes to leave the sinful behavior or attitude behind in order to run the opposite way toward the Lord.

2. You must experience a new level of rejoicing. This is what the prodigal son experienced.  He returned to His Father and finally understood what it cost to bring him back into the home.  Half of the estate was gone.  Therefore, the robe and the ring that the Father gave him actually belonged to the elder brother.  This is why the elder brother was so upset about the party and the gift-giving.  The money to finance all of this came from his half of the estate!

The lesson for us is this: A Father needs the resources of an elder brother in order to bring a wayward son back. The prodigal son’s elder brother was resistant to using his resources to bring his younger brother back, but in Christ, we have a loving elder brother!   We have a robe because Jesus hung naked on the cross. We have a festival cup because Jesus drank the cup of judgment and wrath.  Jesus was willing to give up a portion of His inheritance in order to welcome us (the prodigals) back into the Father’s Kingdom!  And in this, we can (and must) experience a new level of rejoicing!

Here are the lyrics that forced his record label to label the album “explicit.”

You say you always treat people like you like to be
I guess you love being hated for your sexuality
You love when people put words in your mouth
‘Bout what you believe, make you sound like a freak

‘Cause if you really believe what you say you believe
You wouldn’t be so damn reckless with the words you speak
Wouldn’t silently consent when the liars speak
Denyin’ all the dyin’ or the remedy

Tell me, brother, what matters more to you?
Tell me, sister, what matters more to you?

If I can tell what’s in your heart by what comes out of your mouth
Then it sure looks to me like being straight is all it’s about
It looks like being hated for all the wrong things
Like chasin’ the wind while the pendulum swings

‘Cause we can talk and debate until we’re blue in the face
About the language and tradition that he’s comin’ to save
Meanwhile we sit just like we don’t give a shit
About 50,000 people who are dyin’ today

Tell me, brother, what matters more to you?
Tell me, sister, what matters more to you?

Derek is using the same tact that Tony Campolo does when he says things like this: While you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don’t give a shit. What’s more is that you’re more upset with the fact that I just said ’shit’ than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night. This song seems to be asking what message the church sends when we get all up in arms about homosexuality without being concerned about the global AIDS crisis.

While the song is – for sure – controversial in nature because of the use of two words that many deem inappropriate, I would argue that the song is by no means “explicit” in nature like his record label suggests.  Many of the songs on the radio today make this song sound like a nursery rhyme in comparison.  Besides, the message Derek is conveying is one that the church desperately needs to hear, but unfortunately, so many of the “normal” methods modern preachers and prophets use to convey it aren’t being heard.

So, my prayer is that the controversy surrounding this song will draw a large amount of attention to it, and that in so doing, the message of compassion, justice, non-judgment, and unconditional love (which the last time I checked is the message of Jesus) will be heard.

As part of my sermon this weekend, I’ll talk about some of the people in other countries who are being oppressed and persecuted for being Christians.  I’m mindful that it’s because of the sacrifice of men and women before me who have secured for me a country where we I’m allowed to freely practice my faith.  For that, I am truly thankful to them.

However, as much as I love my country and as much as I’m thankful for the freedom that others have secured for me, as a Christian, I feel torn this weekend.  As a matter of fact, I feel torn most of the time.  The Scriptures say that this world (including my country) is not my home.  My citizenship, the Scriptures say, is in another Kingdom.  Not in the kingdom of the United States, but in the Kingdom of God.  Therefore, I’m torn.

My allegiance, the Scriptures say, is to be pledged to God, not to the American flag.  My ruler is ultimately to be the King of Kings, not the kings of America.  My money is to be used to further God’s Kingdom; my time is to be spent building God’s Kingdom; and my mind is to be utilized for strategic Kingdom of God thinking.

Unfortunately, I’m living in a time when the Kingdom of God is often equated to the kingdom of America.  Pledging allegiance to the flag and pledging allegiance to God have been reduced to the same thing.  Patriotism to America is seen by many in the church today as a Christian requirement.  It’s as if the church has bought into the idea that loving God and loving America are one in the same.  And this is where the tension lies.

I’m glad to be an American, and I truly enjoy the benefits that come with my citizenship here.  My name has been registered for the military draft now for 21 years, and I faithfully pay my taxes!  But, I can not allow myself to be sucked into the prominent thinking in the church today that patriotism to America is a requirement of being a Christian.  The Scriptures make it clear that my allegiance can only be to one thing, and as a Christian, it must be to God.

Ever heard of the emergent church movement? It’s a pretty big deal these days. It’s a growing movement of people and churches that are attempting to figure out how to do ministry in a post-modern (post-Christian) context, which is the type of culture we’re living in. I really don’t want to take the time to explain in detail what the term post-modern implies, but in a nutshell, it implies that we are living in a time dominated by the transmission of massive amounts of information (via the Internet), the absence of absolute truth (relativism), and a pervasive sense of skepticism and cynicism (especially toward traditional Christianity). We are living in a post-modern, post-Christian culture here in America today, and because of this, our methods and strategies for reaching people for Christ must take this reality into consideration.

Well, the emergent church movement is trying to do this. On the surface, they seem to be doing a great job. Some of their thinking, questions, and conclusions are profound and have been very motivating and challenging for me as a Christ-follower and as a pastor attempting to lead others in following Christ. Brian McLaren is the recognized national leader of this movement in America. He is a pastor, author, and well-known speaker. I attended a 12-hour intensive training seminar hosted by him back in the late 90′s on how to do ministry in a post-modern context. His book, More Ready Than You Realize, was instrumental in helping me understand how to share Christ (the Truth) in a culture where truth is not valued or recognized. In light of this book, I had him on my radio show (Parenting Teenagers) back in 2002 to talk to parents about how they could more effectively communicate their faith to their post-modern kids. It was one of my favorite programs…and I did 160 of them! I’ve even quoted McLaren from the pulpit, and on our recent vacation, Michelle and I listened to a couple of his podcasts. I really, really like him. He inspires me, and the compassionate way in which he communicates is very appealing to me.

So, here’s the rub. He is a lightening rod for criticism among many evangelicals today, including some that I highly regard and respect. Some have gone so far as to call McLaren a cult-leader, and recently I heard John MacArthur (a pastor and Bible teacher that I have great respect for) even question whether or not McLaren was a true follower of Christ, suggesting that he is a false teacher that the Bible warns believers about. And it’s not just Brian McLaren that is at the receiving end of such strong criticism. Other notables like Rob Bell (of Nooma video fame of which I’ve shown all his videos at The Foothills) and Mark Oestreicher (the leader of Youth Specialities which Jesse and I have and are still using their material in our youth group) have been named with Brian McLaren as false teachers who are wrong about some pretty major tenants of the Christian faith.

Here is what many mainline evangelical leaders are criticizing the emergent church leaders (namely Brian McLaren) for:

1. Allowing the current cultural climate to have too much influence on how they interpret the Scriptures. In other words, critics of the emergent church say that rather than allowing the Scripture to speak for itself or rather than allowing the traditionally accepted interpretation of certain Scriptural passages to stand, emergent church leaders are allowing the current cultural climate to heavily influence how the Scriptures should be interpreted today. Some call this the deconstruction of Scripture, and it has lead to some pretty nontraditional conclusions.

2. One of these nontraditional conclusions is their view on hell. Emergent leaders like Brian McLaren really struggle with this issue. They find it hard to believe that a God who – through Christ – ushered in a new kingdom (the Kingdom of God) could teach peace, forgiveness, and reconciliation and then at the end of a person’s life practice the opposite of these things and allow a person to go to a hell that He created for them. Therefore, some emergent leaders really shy away from believing in a literal hell (like the one the Bible tells us about), or they believe that people may have a chance to come to Christ after death.

Tony Campolo (a friend of Brian McLaren and another man I think pretty highly of) recently said these very nontraditional words: “I’m not so sure that when this life is over that all possibilities for salvation are over. I read in Ephesians 4:9-10 a passage that can be interpreted to describe a Jesus who descends into “the depths below the earth” to bring captives up to God. I read in 1 Peter 3:19 about a Jesus who goes to preach to those in the prison house of death, and I believe these Scriptures show Jesus doing something for people after they are dead, as we understand death. This reveals Jesus to be the “hound of heaven.” Yes, I believe there will be people in hell eternally, but somehow, I believe from Scripture—note I said from Scripture—that in the end everybody gets a chance to choose.”

3. They also have a different take on what kind of Kingdom Christ established. The traditional view of the Kingdom of God is that Christ came to establish a spiritual (other-world) kingdom where people are added to this Kingdom by making a decision to follow Christ spiritually. The fruition of this Kingdom comes when those who make the decision to be a part of the Kingdom of God while alive die and enter into the His Kingdom in heaven for eternity. The traditional emphasis of the Kingdom then is on the future (heaven).

Emergent leaders like McLaren, however, see it differently. They say that the Kingdom of God is not as much about heaven as it is about earth. They say that Christ came to establish a Kingdom where people love and care for each other while on earth, and our emphasis over the years on just saving souls is off. He says, “Western Christianity has been overly preoccupied with the question of who’s going to heaven or hell after death, and not focused enough on the question of what kind of life is truly pleasing to God here in the land of the living.” While I do think that Christians do need to concern ourselves more with the needs of others here in the “land of the living”, evangelical leaders like John MacArthur revolt against McLaren’s words saying that the Scriptures say that life on earth is like a vapor and what Jesus came to do was NOT make this world necessarily a better place (or he would have done more about issues like hunger, corrupt government, etc.), but Jesus came to seek and save the lost…and save their souls for all eternity.

This ultimately comes down to understanding what Jesus meant by the Kingdom of God, and the emergent church leaders see it differently than do more traditional evangelical leaders. Leaders like MacArthur call McLaren’s view on the Kingdom of God a “liberal social gospel” view.

So…the question becomes: Do we throw the baby out with the bath water? Just because we don’t agree with someone, or even if they are off on some pretty major doctrinal issues, do we throw everything they have to say about faith issues out the window? I sure have a hard time with this because I believe that God has used Brian McLaren in a pretty profound way in my life and in the life of our church for that matter.

What do you think? Where do you fall on the issue of the emergent church? What have you read or heard about it, and what do you think? Should we throw the baby out with the bath water? I’m curious to know!

Mike